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i want to thank and alyssa and i want to

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thank everyone for coming

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um this is um

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i think this is an important topic

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um and so i hope it i hope it's

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interesting and i hope uh um you know we

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can we can share some thoughts and ideas

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about it

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so um

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david hume let's see oops david hume um

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wrote an essay called of miracles

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and in this essay he basically defined a

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miracle and his term is a violation of

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the laws of nature

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and um basically hume was an empiricist

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in the sense that he believed that

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experience was really

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um how it was our fundamental way of

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determining reality so whenever we

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removed ourselves from experience that

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that is had to rely on testimony for

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hume that was kind of a step down okay

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now his argument

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um of miracles um could be sort of

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summarized sort of in

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it's basically an attack against

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um or basically it focuses on the

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reliability unreliability of human

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testimony especially regarding religious

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miracles

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events that are extremely rare

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they have a tendency to sort of invoke a

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kind of passion and wonder which um

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which i think for hume disengages us

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from our critical faculties

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and miracles tended to happen or to

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occur in remote places where there were

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a few witnesses

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and him also noticed that throughout

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time um you know men have been dishonest

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have had tendency to exaggerate things

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perhaps um to kind of you know get

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listeners maybe even to get a sense of

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power

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so um all of this um meant for him that

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the probabilities associated with a

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miracle

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um or that is as such with the with the

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testimony regarding miracle is always

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going to be substantially smaller than

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the probability associated with what he

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would call reliable testimony which is

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basically the kind of testimony that

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we're familiar with testimony that's

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actually very congruent with our

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day-to-day experience so for for hume we

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should never accept a miracle okay now

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as i'm going to talk about um the the

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psych critics have a tendency to sort of

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employ this

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argument um throughout

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many of their arguments

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and it does a lot of heavy lifting so

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but before i get to that i want to just

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summarize um recently

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cardinia has

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provide presented a very um a very

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convenient summary of the meta-analysis

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of side data that has occurred in

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laboratories

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and this is not a conclusive but there's

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definitely a lot of material that has

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been sort of a different modes of size

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such as telepathy precognition remote

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viewing pre-sentiment

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and uh these studies have have become so

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numerous that they've actually been

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pooled into meta studies and as you can

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see this is uh sort of a

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shortened version of table one from his

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paper um there's oh there's over 800

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studies we're talking about that that

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are the basis of all these different

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meta analysis

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and these have happened over decades um

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accumulated um

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and from different laboratories

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different different researchers and as

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you can see in the right hand column the

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the p values suggest that the um the ch

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the odds or the likelihood that these

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sort of effects could be due to chances

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just astronomically

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nil or negligible okay so um he also

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presents another table that has to do

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with anomalous perturbation or what most

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people i think would call

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psychokinesis there the p values are a

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bit smaller with the exception of roger

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nelson's uh global consciousness but

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still looks like there is across the

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board some significant level of

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mind matter interaction although some

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parapsychologists do inter do question

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the uh interpretation of that it looks

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like there's something um going on

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so um so now i want to get to reburn

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alcock's

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argument using hume although it's

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important to point out that hume's

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argument has has really been a kind of

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workhouse for the size skeptics um

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throughout through the throughout the

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decades of debate between uh psy

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skeptics and psy advocates um chuck

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onerton um mentioned um price's 1955

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critique of ryan's paper um in the paper

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price

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um

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has presented us with enough evidence to

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convince us that there is something

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going on along the lines of telepathy

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but then he acknowledges that david

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hume's argument by itself was sufficient

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to convince him that it had to be wrong

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and so occasionally um david hume's

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article argument is sort of popped up

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here and there

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um wagenmacher's attack on

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bim's

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precognition for example most recently

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rieber and alcock dismiss all the site

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evidence presented in cardenia

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so i'm just going to give you the bare

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bones

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of the argument there

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first of all rebar and alcock

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claim that the psy evidence violates

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important principles of established that

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are established in physics and they list

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these principles as um including

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no causal mechanism uh reverses

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cause and effect violates thermodynamics

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and violates inverse square laws okay

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now

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this is sufficient these violation of

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principles signifies a violation of

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natural laws and therefore they can

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invoke hume's argument that the site

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evidence must be classified as

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miraculous and therefore we must dismiss

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the site evidence no matter how much

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evidence accumulates so you can see

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uh hume's argument here is actually um

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kind of like doing some pretty heavy

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lifting

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and

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it raises an interesting sort of

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question philosophy of science because

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in science we usually sort of depend

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very heavily on evidence but if the

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evidence under some some circumstances

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can be swept away then we're sort of

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left kind of with this sort of

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interesting

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problem about what how how to tell when

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we're doing science and when we're not

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doing science and all kinds of

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interesting

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um questions come up

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okay

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so

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let's take let's let's remind ourselves

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though that hume's argument was

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primarily

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aimed at the at the sort of the faulty

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nature of religious

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testimony okay so what about how do we

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sort of transfer that kind of argument

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into the laboratory

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um that's something that the science

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skeptics don't really

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um pay a lot of attention to in my view

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there's a few other sort of problems too

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that i'll say a few more words about

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we can note that the evidence that they

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base these principles on the ones that i

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just went over are generally taken from

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physics

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science that we know a lot about but the

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psi data arguably might be a different

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set of data maybe maybe data that has to

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do with maybe consciousness of some kind

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maybe even quantum mechanics because a

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lot of the psychokinesis data does use

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random number generators that are based

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on principles of quantum mechanics

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and that raises another question of

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whether the psi

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might be characterized as miraculous or

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instead

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as anomalous in that in some sense that

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is real but just not fitting into our

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current understanding of uh the world

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okay perhaps there may be gaps remaining

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in our understanding of the world and if

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so could the side data fall into these

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gaps and perhaps give us some help us

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understand what's going on with some of

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these persistent um mysteries i guess

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you could call them okay um recently um

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i i found this critique of some of the

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psy

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data by sean carroll

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and uh he doesn't mention him but he's

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sort of another example of someone who's

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using an argument that's very similar in

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the sense that

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um you know that the side data seems to

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be so contrary to scientific principles

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as we know them that um

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that um you know it probably is very

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unlikely of course sean carroll is

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someone who advocates the many worlds

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which we find which is also kind of a

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radical claim which has zero evidence as

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far as i know

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and uh so it's kind of an interesting um

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position that he is where of sort of

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being a size skeptic but at the same

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time advocating something else that

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might arguably be that some might find

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to be kind of radical

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okay so um it turns out that hume does

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have in his uh um in his in his essay

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something that we can sort of like

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see is adaptable to the laboratory

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though and and rather than sort of read

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this to you

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um i'm just going to summarize basically

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the idea is that when we're doing

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experiments and observations we can sort

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of see that there's experiments that

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fall on one side

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and there's experiments that sort of

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have a different effect and we can sort

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of see a kind of the accumulation of

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experiments as being kind of a way of

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weighing the two and if one side is

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let's say

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heavier if we think of a scale we can

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think of one side as being really a lot

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heavier than the other the the the

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degree that one is heavier or let's say

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has a much larger number gives a sense

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of what it's more likely really it's

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kind of a common sense way of the way we

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would think of of experiments but the

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important point here is that hume does

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seem to suggest that in a laboratory

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under controlled experience

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under controlled conditions

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that numbers do matter and we want to

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pay very close attention to you know how

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many

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we could

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get on one side versus another

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now it turns out

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though that having said that there is

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kind of a lifeline that hume's paper

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gives to the size skeptics and that is

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there is the possibility of

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fraud or some sort of questionable

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research practices going into the

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laboratory now

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it's it it was so while a lot of the

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problems that hume worried about are are

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sort of um not really applicable in a

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laboratory there this he does give us

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reason to think that there might be some

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dishonesty or some

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uh questionable practices okay

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so and it turns out there is

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historically speaking some evidence of

285
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:08,959
fraud of fraud inside research

286
00:11:13,509 --> 00:11:11,040
walter levy and soul

287
00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:13,519
and uh um and these are the these are

288
00:11:18,069 --> 00:11:15,839
the prominent examples that usually are

289
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:18,079
discussed um you know it's worth

290
00:11:23,350 --> 00:11:20,880
pointing out that the the the data here

291
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:23,360
um is not included in the in the meta

292
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:26,800
analysis it's also worth pointing out um

293
00:11:31,269 --> 00:11:28,959
that walter levy was actually discovered

294
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:31,279
by other psy researchers

295
00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:33,920
um which is kind of interesting and uh

296
00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:35,519
it sort of i think goes to the point

297
00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:38,480
that the psy researchers do have a kind

298
00:11:43,030 --> 00:11:41,200
of cultural of vigilance that is trying

299
00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:43,040
to be on the lookout for anything that's

300
00:11:46,389 --> 00:11:44,880
not quite kosher

301
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:46,399
um it's also worth pointing out that

302
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:49,440
both of these paid very heavy prices um

303
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:50,959
when the fraud was discovered although i

304
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:53,519
think seoul was discovered after his uh

305
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:56,240
after his passing but certainly it cast

306
00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:58,160
a shadow on all their research even

307
00:12:01,269 --> 00:11:59,920
research that had been

308
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:01,279
perhaps

309
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:03,519
not involved in any kind of fraud okay

310
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:04,720
so

311
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:07,279
is that sufficient to really just kind

312
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:09,600
of say well okay some fraud has happened

313
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:11,839
we should sort of like um

314
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:14,079
well of course that's not really the way

315
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:16,560
that science works in general fraud

316
00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:20,000
occurs we generally sort of don't um you

317
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:22,880
know um toss out um you know various

318
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:24,880
kinds of research that other people have

319
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:26,399
done that might be similar if they

320
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:27,680
haven't been

321
00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:29,600
um you know accused of fraud or actually

322
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:32,160
haven't been established as having fraud

323
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:35,519
so there is a literature on fraud um

324
00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:37,600
a survey and i'm not sure i'm going to

325
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:40,000
pronounce his name right chavez's or

326
00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:41,440
luis

327
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:43,839
found scientific fraud to be correlated

328
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,560
with

329
00:12:49,190 --> 00:12:46,800
often prospects of job placement and

330
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:49,200
academic prestige okay so you can sort

331
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:51,680
of imagine the situation where someone

332
00:12:57,670 --> 00:12:54,800
wants to have a wants to maintain a a

333
00:12:59,829 --> 00:12:57,680
prestigious academic um position or

334
00:13:02,310 --> 00:12:59,839
wants to sort of be hired by a

335
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:02,320
university and but just had doesn't have

336
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:04,959
that publication or maybe a publication

337
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:06,880
that has the right kind of finding and

338
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:08,959
so there's a lot of there can be a lot

339
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:12,240
of pressure to kind of uh sort of um

340
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:15,200
maybe alter the results maybe

341
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:17,600
they might even see benign to the to the

342
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:19,120
person committing it

343
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:21,200
but we can note that historically psy

344
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:23,760
researchers have not improved their jobs

345
00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:24,560
um

346
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:28,320
through through sign research okay so

347
00:13:32,710 --> 00:13:30,560
the the kind of motivations and

348
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:32,720
incentives that have been associated

349
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:35,839
with fraud in more let's say mainstream

350
00:13:41,509 --> 00:13:39,199
research are are not actually present

351
00:13:43,590 --> 00:13:41,519
and i've noticed and i've called

352
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:43,600
attention the fact that people have

353
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:46,240
committed fraud and psy you know paid a

354
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:47,199
very

355
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:49,279
large price it's not really clear that

356
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:52,160
there's any kind of benefit um even

357
00:13:55,590 --> 00:13:54,079
let's say if you you talk about daryl

358
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:55,600
bim i mean he had

359
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:58,160
it got a lot of attention but um it's

360
00:14:01,509 --> 00:13:59,519
not really clear that in terms of

361
00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:01,519
prestige or certainly in terms of money

362
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:04,480
that it really gave them you know

363
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,120
gave him much so by so by and large we

364
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:09,360
can notice that the incentives

365
00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:10,800
to to commit fraud in the psych

366
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:12,720
committee are probably substantially

367
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:16,399
less that would be my my view from uh um

368
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:18,320
you know from from the data on the

369
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:20,560
nature of fraud we can also notice that

370
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:23,839
this kind of like um culture or or the

371
00:14:26,949 --> 00:14:25,040
historical

372
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:26,959
um kind of uh um

373
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:28,560
you know um

374
00:14:35,189 --> 00:14:31,600
pattern uh in in the sci community has

375
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:35,199
led arguably to improvements in quality

376
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:38,000
um cardinian cite studies that find the

377
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:41,199
psi effects um do not diminish with

378
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:42,880
variables representing

379
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:44,880
quality good note that parapsychology

380
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:47,279
journals have a tendency to encourage

381
00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:50,320
publication where no results of note are

382
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:52,320
found or when the when the when the null

383
00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:54,560
is it can't be rejected

384
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:57,760
shell drag found high quality um that

385
00:15:01,269 --> 00:15:00,079
the cy research had a tendency to

386
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:01,279
um

387
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:04,000
to to lead the way in high quality

388
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:06,320
so um i'll go i'll say a little bit more

389
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:08,160
just going to to history here there's

390
00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:10,480
there's the gansfeld method which i

391
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:12,639
think many of you understand

392
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:13,440
um

393
00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:19,440
pioneered by chuck onerton employed a

394
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:20,880
noise reduction

395
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:22,720
based on the idea that sensory

396
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:24,959
deprivation heightens areas of

397
00:15:28,389 --> 00:15:27,360
consciousness more sensitive to side

398
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:28,399
after

399
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:32,240
28 gainsfield studies um honerton and

400
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:34,959
hyman a psi critic

401
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:36,639
collaborate and generate a set of

402
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:39,120
protocols this of course is well known

403
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:41,440
um eliminating sources of sensory

404
00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:42,560
linkage

405
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:43,360
um

406
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:45,440
pioneering automation of selection of

407
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,320
images shown to the sender and so forth

408
00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:50,480
and the important point here is that you

409
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:53,040
have sort of a this this collaboration

410
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:56,399
really does suggest that um

411
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:58,480
that is something different from

412
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:00,959
what i think most sort of uh mainstream

413
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:04,399
researchers um sort of endure to kind of

414
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:06,560
improve kind of generate a very tight

415
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:09,120
quality control and and and the results

416
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:11,360
have been 108 studies which show you

417
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:13,360
know highly significant with

418
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:15,600
astronomically small um

419
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:18,720
likelihood of chance okay now recently

420
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:21,360
there have been some um psy researchers

421
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:22,720
that have said look

422
00:16:27,189 --> 00:16:24,720
can we explain the gans build

423
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:27,199
meta-analysis through some combination

424
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:29,360
of questionable research practices and

425
00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:32,480
fraud occurring simultaneously and they

426
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:35,199
borrowed the the sort of the levels of

427
00:16:38,470 --> 00:16:37,120
questionable research practices that

428
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:38,480
have been sort of obtained through

429
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:39,600
surveys

430
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,639
in more mainstream um in mainstream

431
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:44,399
areas of research

432
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:46,320
but as i've noted you know given the

433
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,120
ganzfeld's history it's probably a bit

434
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,880
of a stretch to assume that the same

435
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:52,000
level of

436
00:16:55,910 --> 00:16:55,199
qrps and fraud is other

437
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:55,920
is

438
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:57,839
that it's comparable it's probably a

439
00:17:02,069 --> 00:16:59,920
little bit of a stretch palmer's also

440
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:02,079
criticized the number of uh assumptions

441
00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:04,880
that biermann and his co-authors uh

442
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:08,319
found so so even with however that kind

443
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:10,799
of questionable um sort of

444
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,600
uh

445
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,199
that questionable assumption about the

446
00:17:17,909 --> 00:17:15,760
levels of questionable practices they

447
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:17,919
still could not account for the whole

448
00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:19,839
effect there's it although

449
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:23,199
as as i pointed out the uh the p-value

450
00:17:28,270 --> 00:17:25,679
is smaller than 10 to the minus 16. they

451
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:28,280
were able to drop it quite a bit to

452
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:31,200
.005 but still there seems to be a very

453
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:34,000
substantial sort of real effect

454
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:36,000
and then if we sort of go back

455
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:38,640
um maybe i should just you know like if

456
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,600
i can do this quickly um if you can sort

457
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:44,160
of imagine doing a similar exercise

458
00:17:49,830 --> 00:17:48,000
where you sort of plug in qrps um to all

459
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:49,840
of these and sort of like what are you

460
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:51,520
gonna find well it looks like you you

461
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:54,080
probably end up with a sort of a joint

462
00:17:58,549 --> 00:17:56,480
p-value that is still astronomically

463
00:18:00,390 --> 00:17:58,559
small i mean the likelihood that all of

464
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:00,400
these even if you have something on the

465
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:02,799
level of p equals 0.05 you so if you

466
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:03,679
sort of

467
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:06,000
bring all of those and ask yourself well

468
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:08,960
what is the likelihood that all of these

469
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:11,679
data are generated by some sort of like

470
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:13,360
combination of fraud and questionable

471
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:15,679
research practices it seems like we're

472
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:17,440
still kind of stuck in this very

473
00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:20,640
extremely unlikely kind of uh

474
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:22,400
kind of situation

475
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:24,080
so um now

476
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:26,240
doug stokes um is someone who said wait

477
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:28,480
a minute maybe there's just fraud across

478
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:30,160
the board maybe there's even some sort

479
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:31,360
of

480
00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:33,840
coordination between researchers so it

481
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:35,919
almost seems like we have to go down the

482
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:38,480
road of maybe considering a conspiracy

483
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:41,440
theory usually scientists sort of roll

484
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:43,679
their eyes at this point and say well

485
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:45,760
you know we general conspiracy theories

486
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:48,160
are just inherently unlikely in the

487
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:51,200
extreme in this case remember that would

488
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,080
mean you would have various um

489
00:18:59,110 --> 00:18:56,160
researchers somehow able to sort of

490
00:19:02,150 --> 00:18:59,120
maintain a coordination and silence of

491
00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:02,160
some kind of fraud over decades and

492
00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:04,880
exactly what are the benefits from doing

493
00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:06,720
that it's just not really clear but we

494
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,200
also know that it would sort of be

495
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,520
catastrophic um in terms of people's

496
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:13,440
reputations so there would be a huge

497
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:16,080
cost so all the all the answers really

498
00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:18,160
all the when we take a hard look at

499
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:20,240
fraud it really seems inherently

500
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:23,200
unlikely so let's consider the other

501
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:24,880
side of the equation is it possible

502
00:19:27,909 --> 00:19:26,240
there's something

503
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:27,919
really going on that we should be paying

504
00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:29,200
attention to

505
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:30,400
um

506
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:32,960
well one thing let's come back to our

507
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:34,799
original sort of

508
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:36,799
question where i said

509
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:39,039
it looks like the size skeptics are

510
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:41,120
basing their whole argument in large

511
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:44,320
part on looking at

512
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:46,160
various kinds of

513
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:49,200
constraints or principles based on one

514
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:50,960
set of data that they're applying to

515
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:53,120
another set of data but is that really

516
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,240
valid

517
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:56,720
hume and another important argument

518
00:20:02,470 --> 00:19:59,600
argued that we never directly experience

519
00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:02,480
causation or causal relationships but

520
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,720
rather only the regularities of how

521
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:06,400
objects move together

522
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,400
so for hume there's always this

523
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:10,640
substantial gap between what was

524
00:20:16,390 --> 00:20:13,200
ultimately let's say matters of

525
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:16,400
causation and our experience and because

526
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:19,200
this gap is always present we can never

527
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:21,280
really fully characterize

528
00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:24,960
um to some arbitrarily uh precise way

529
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:27,440
what the causal laws actually are

530
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:30,480
and thus it seems to invalidate this

531
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:32,880
attempt by the size skeptics to take

532
00:20:40,549 --> 00:20:35,520
principles that are sort of inferred in

533
00:20:45,350 --> 00:20:42,870
so in the history of science we do have

534
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:45,360
these episodes of anomalous findings

535
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:47,919
regarding some new area of inquiry and

536
00:20:53,029 --> 00:20:50,159
often the pattern is is that we've got

537
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:53,039
one set of one sort of new domain let's

538
00:20:58,549 --> 00:20:56,080
say for example the way that einstein

539
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:58,559
explored relativity we had

540
00:21:01,750 --> 00:20:59,600
newton's

541
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:01,760
laws which worked very well and then

542
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:03,760
until finally we considered sort of

543
00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:07,280
maybe much larger areas of space where a

544
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:09,760
much different kind of um sort of laws

545
00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:12,240
of nature were needed um quantum

546
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:14,400
mechanics is another example

547
00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:17,120
um is non-classical in the sense that it

548
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,640
entails some kind of non-local behavior

549
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:22,400
and these persistent mysteries of

550
00:21:27,029 --> 00:21:24,880
quantum mechanics suggests sort of a

551
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,039
persistent gap in our understanding of

552
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:29,200
the sort of deeper ontology of the

553
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:30,799
physical world

554
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:33,120
and also philosophers continue to

555
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:34,799
struggle to fit consciousness or

556
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:37,440
subjective experience in our theater in

557
00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:40,320
our theories based on the physical world

558
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,320
so

559
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,480
chalmers david chalmers

560
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,400
um is coined the term heart problem of

561
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:48,480
consciousness and he's noticed that he's

562
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:50,640
argued that consciousness in some sense

563
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,360
a kind of anomaly okay so he says that

564
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:55,600
consciousness right now is a kind of

565
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:58,159
anomaly one that we need to integrate

566
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:00,400
into our view of the world but don't

567
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:02,720
really see how faced with an anomaly

568
00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:06,080
like this radical ideas might be needed

569
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:08,720
and he says he thinks it may need one or

570
00:22:12,789 --> 00:22:11,200
two crazy ideas before we can really

571
00:22:14,789 --> 00:22:12,799
sort of make progress on the hard

572
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:14,799
problem of consciousness

573
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,760
and

574
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:17,520
chalmers is someone who argues that we

575
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:19,280
probably need to take consciousness as

576
00:22:23,669 --> 00:22:21,679
fundamental in some sense not something

577
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:23,679
that just emerges from non-conscious

578
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:25,039
particles

579
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:27,760
um another philosopher of consciousness

580
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,559
keith frankish has sort of a a very

581
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:32,320
different view of consciousness he says

582
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:34,880
that consciousness is a not is truly

583
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:37,760
anomalous in the sense of being radical

584
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:40,159
inexplicable within our established

585
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:42,640
scientific worldview but he views the

586
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:45,440
idea that consciousness is so radical

587
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:47,440
from our um

588
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:49,360
from our conventional views that it's

589
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:51,760
probably some kind of illusion it's

590
00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:53,600
probably some something that's not

591
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:56,320
really as real as we think it is which

592
00:23:00,470 --> 00:22:58,880
of course is kind of a strange thing

593
00:23:01,510 --> 00:23:00,480
because it just seems like the one thing

594
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:01,520
we should

595
00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:03,440
maybe take as real as our conscious

596
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:04,880
experience

597
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,520
but frankish feels that our are we

598
00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:09,120
should we should probably

599
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:11,520
find ways where where we're where we're

600
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:13,760
not really having consciousness the way

601
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:17,039
we think are now if you think about this

602
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:19,039
this is kind of astonishing because it

603
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:21,039
means with regarding consciousness we

604
00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:24,240
may have two sets of data the side data

605
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:26,000
and our own

606
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:28,000
experiences that suggest that

607
00:23:31,750 --> 00:23:29,200
consciousness

608
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:31,760
is really something that doesn't fit in

609
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:33,679
with our conscious experience

610
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:36,000
if we do take our consciousness

611
00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:38,080
conscious experiences is real and

612
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:40,880
therefore anomalous it really in my view

613
00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:43,200
opens the door

614
00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:45,360
or should i open our minds to the idea

615
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:47,200
that maybe the psi data is sort of

616
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:49,120
telling us something about the nature of

617
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:50,640
consciousness

618
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:53,679
so if we think about on the side data it

619
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,919
arguably falls into the domains of

620
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:58,240
quantum mechanics and consciousness this

621
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:00,400
these two areas that we're still sort of

622
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:02,240
like trying to understand

623
00:24:07,029 --> 00:24:04,640
um like i said before the psi data some

624
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:07,039
of the side data does sort of seem to be

625
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,279
linked with quantum mechanics uh dean

626
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:11,760
rayden also has some experiments on the

627
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,000
double slit experiment which suggests

628
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:16,559
some sensitivity to mental intention

629
00:24:22,149 --> 00:24:19,919
so it seems like these persistent areas

630
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:22,159
give us reason to think that you know

631
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:24,000
the psi data is something that we have

632
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:26,000
to take more seriously and can't just

633
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:29,200
sweep away so just inclusion to wrap

634
00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:30,320
things up

635
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:32,080
i want to point out that the probability

636
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,159
that the data summarized by

637
00:24:38,149 --> 00:24:37,039
recently by cardenia is generated that

638
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:38,159
that is the probability that it's

639
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:40,720
generated by fraudulent or questionable

640
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:41,840
practices

641
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:44,799
it appears to be extremely unlikely and

642
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:47,440
that and further i believe hume would

643
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:50,640
not endorse uh what the practice of

644
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:53,440
extrapolating principles or constraints

645
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:55,360
that are inferred from one domain such

646
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,760
as physics and sort of like try to sort

647
00:25:01,029 --> 00:24:58,720
of

648
00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:01,039
apply them in a very different one okay

649
00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:02,720
such as consciousness

650
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:05,200
and as it happens the side data seems to

651
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:08,159
fall within domains where there remain

652
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:10,640
persistent gaps in our understanding as

653
00:25:14,789 --> 00:25:11,919
i said quantum mechanics and

654
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:14,799
consciousness so overall i believe the

655
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:17,360
greater likelihood is that psy

656
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:19,840
as with consciousness um represents

657
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:22,720
something that's real yet anomalous not

658
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:23,600
quite

659
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:29,039
sort of more conventional understandings

660
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:31,679
now i'm not certain to answer my sort of

661
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:34,640
question in the title i i i'm not sure

662
00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:36,640
uh hume would agree with all this i mean

663
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:38,880
i guess we should we could try to

664
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:41,039
you know maybe um

665
00:25:45,029 --> 00:25:43,200
reanimate his body his corpse but then

666
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:45,039
he would that would be a miracle and i

667
00:25:50,470 --> 00:25:47,360
think he would be very um put off by

668
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:50,480
that so uh anyways probably best to say

669
00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:53,120
that um he we don't really know what he

670
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:55,440
would say but it's possible but i think

671
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:57,840
what we can say is that his arguments do

672
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:00,320
not provide the resources that sai

673
00:26:08,390 --> 00:26:04,080
skeptics um maintain to dismiss the psy

674
00:26:10,630 --> 00:26:08,400
data so uh anyway i wanna now thank you

675
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:10,640
i'm gonna hand york the mic

676
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:13,440
uh well i'm sorry to say that this isn't

677
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:16,159
exactly a question except maybe a

678
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:18,159
rhetorical one

679
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:21,840
but i notice that the

680
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:25,360
um rebrand alcott paper uh

681
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:27,440
invokes the

682
00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:29,840
inverse square law

683
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:32,880
uh criticism for what is probably the

684
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:36,320
thousandth time over the last century

685
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:39,440
um and the problem with it i i don't see

686
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:42,799
why anyone takes it seriously because

687
00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:45,120
our everyday experience is full of

688
00:26:50,789 --> 00:26:47,600
genuine physical phenomena that don't

689
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:50,799
obey the inverse square law the

690
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,840
uh best example

691
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:55,679
uh

692
00:27:01,269 --> 00:26:59,200
for a brief response is

693
00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:01,279
radio broadcasts

694
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:02,000
the

695
00:27:07,269 --> 00:27:04,320
signal-to-noise ratio of a radio

696
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:07,279
broadcast does obey the inverse square

697
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:08,080
law

698
00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:10,400
but what you hear

699
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,640
what comes out of the speaker of a radio

700
00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:14,880
we don't perceive radio directly

701
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:17,440
we perceive the informational content of

702
00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:19,840
a signal that is broadcast

703
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:21,760
using radio

704
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:24,480
and as long as the signal-to-noise ratio

705
00:27:27,909 --> 00:27:26,559
is above the threshold that our receiver

706
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:27,919
can discriminate

707
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:30,159
we get exactly the same broadcast

708
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:32,960
whether we're a thousand miles away or

709
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:34,480
standing right next to the broadcast

710
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:37,679
station the information content does not

711
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:43,590
so there are there are other complaints

712
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:45,840
i could make about the rebrand all

713
00:27:50,389 --> 00:27:49,120
paper but i think i should leave that to

714
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:50,399
uh

715
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:52,960
leave open the space for other people

716
00:27:56,789 --> 00:27:54,960
yeah there okay well thank you

717
00:28:00,070 --> 00:27:56,799
thank you

718
00:28:02,389 --> 00:28:00,080
yeah there's a i i i i i did a i did a

719
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:02,399
paper version where i critiqued rieber

720
00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:05,039
and alcock that was in a previous issue

721
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:08,399
of uh journal of scientific exploration

722
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:11,600
and uh i sort of went into more detail

723
00:28:16,389 --> 00:28:14,240
um each of the of the uh sort of

724
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,399
principles and i said why

725
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:18,480
why i think they don't really work while

726
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:20,880
they may arguably work in sort of

727
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:23,200
classical physics how they arguably

728
00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:26,159
don't quite work well in if we want to

729
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:28,240
look in areas such as consciousness and

730
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:31,919
quantum mechanics but i did not use your

731
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:34,720
point of yorkshire so i appreciate you

732
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:37,279
for for sharing that um but but but i

733
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:38,080
did

734
00:28:46,070 --> 00:28:43,120
um just to kind of one one in particular

735
00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:46,080
is lack of causal mechanism that this is

736
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:48,640
kind of also wagonmacher also attacked

737
00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:49,440
them

738
00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:51,440
in that the idea is that we need a sort

739
00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:53,120
of causal mechanism

740
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:53,919
um

741
00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:56,240
one pro one problem of that is that in

742
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:58,159
in quantum mechanics the the collapse of

743
00:29:02,310 --> 00:28:59,600
the wave function

744
00:29:04,789 --> 00:29:02,320
uh or as bait as bone david bohm

745
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:04,799
explains in his um interpretations of

746
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:07,039
quantum mechanics causal mechanisms

747
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:09,600
don't really seem to play the kind of

748
00:29:14,470 --> 00:29:12,159
role in quantum mechanics if at all and

749
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:14,480
then david chalmers actually sort of

750
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:17,919
characterizes the hard problem as the as

751
00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:20,000
is trying to sort of explain the um

752
00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:22,240
aspects of consciousness that can't be

753
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:24,880
really characterized in terms of sort of

754
00:29:30,149 --> 00:29:28,159
mechanisms and and functions so you know

755
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:30,159
once we sort of leave the the confines

756
00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:32,480
of classical physics these principles i

757
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:34,240
think that uh reber and alcock want to

758
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:36,320
sort of hinge so much of their argument

759
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:37,200
on

760
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:42,710
anybody

761
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:45,919
okay um i see another raised hand

762
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:49,120
um okay i'm gonna hand uh i think it's

763
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:51,200
kenny the mic um

764
00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:52,480
the thing that's been bothering me

765
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:55,600
throughout this discussion so far

766
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:57,840
is something that i think

767
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:00,240
as members of sse we would all more or

768
00:30:05,269 --> 00:30:03,039
less agree on and that's the idea that

769
00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:05,279
our understanding of physics is woefully

770
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:07,279
incomplete

771
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:09,840
it is severely limited

772
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:11,520
and

773
00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:14,159
to say that physics can't explain

774
00:30:19,029 --> 00:30:16,399
x y or z

775
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,039
really to me means we have not yet

776
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:21,679
arrived at

777
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:24,720
a complete understanding of physics

778
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:25,600
so

779
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:28,720
mechanism

780
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:31,679
and therefore that thing isn't real

781
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:32,960
well i would

782
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:35,279
i would hasten to

783
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:37,600
remind the speaker not you but the

784
00:30:41,269 --> 00:30:39,279
speaker in general

785
00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:41,279
that we don't understand

786
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:43,360
all kinds of things

787
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:45,840
that a revision of physics a severe

788
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:48,240
revision of physics might eventually

789
00:30:52,789 --> 00:30:50,720
help us understand

790
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:52,799
so

791
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:55,120
i'm all into causal mechanisms

792
00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:56,320
but

793
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:58,080
i just don't think we're smart enough

794
00:31:02,470 --> 00:30:59,440
yet

795
00:31:03,830 --> 00:31:02,480
another question or just a comment but i

796
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:03,840
would be interested in how you feel

797
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:06,480
about that yeah um what's interesting in

798
00:31:09,269 --> 00:31:07,360
the real

799
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,279
paper they they actually

800
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:11,279
acknowledge the fact that

801
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:14,240
on sir isaac newton um his theory of

802
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:16,720
gravitation didn't really have a a

803
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:18,799
mechanism it's sort of in sort of an

804
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:21,120
action distance that seems to be but yet

805
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:24,159
people and and people talked about how

806
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:25,840
you know that worried them a little bit

807
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:27,679
it worried newton too but it's that

808
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:30,240
people used it people found it to be

809
00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:33,279
very useful very accurate way of sort of

810
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:36,559
uh describing the behavior of objects so

811
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:38,480
in their in their own paper they seem to

812
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:41,440
kind of acknowledge that sometimes we

813
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:44,159
don't really need a causal mechanism

814
00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:45,120
um

815
00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:47,919
to uh to sort of like you know go along

816
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,640
with

817
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:50,320
you know to at least you know try to

818
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:54,240
sort of uh um explain or um or at least

819
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:58,000
um describe aspects of of the world so

820
00:32:03,669 --> 00:32:00,559
they kind of in a way defeat their own

821
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:03,679
um claim in a way um and as i said also

822
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:06,240
that there probably there may well be

823
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:10,000
um areas of of physics that um maybe we

824
00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:12,159
that don't involve sort of those kinds

825
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:13,840
of causal mechanisms but you're quite

826
00:32:17,669 --> 00:32:16,080
right there may be causal mechanisms

827
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:17,679
that we just don't know about you know

828
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:20,320
and that's another possibility um so

829
00:32:26,389 --> 00:32:22,799
anyway i i you know i take your point

830
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:26,399
that and i think they you know sort of

831
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:28,640
are they're sort of vulnerable to

832
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:30,399
critique as well

833
00:32:38,549 --> 00:32:37,110
hi logan hi george

834
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:38,559
i think uh

835
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:39,679
can you hear me

836
00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:40,480
yes

837
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:43,919
okay great sorry uh here we go hi hi uh

838
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:45,919
we talked a bit over uh email thank you

839
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:48,000
for inviting me to this wonderful talk

840
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:50,880
um i have a question i have plenty of

841
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:53,840
comments i have a question um which is

842
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:55,760
uh i'm going to assume that you are

843
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:58,080
familiar with the famous um

844
00:33:02,789 --> 00:33:00,880
uh sagan standard uh you know uh

845
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:02,799
described in the aphorism extraordinary

846
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:05,519
claims require extraordinary evidence

847
00:33:09,669 --> 00:33:08,000
yeah curious how you would map

848
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:09,679
hume's view

849
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:11,919
to that standard

850
00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:13,279
um which is something that's always

851
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:16,000
bothered me i'm an experimentalist

852
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:18,399
and uh and for all you experimentalists

853
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:20,240
out there um if you know you know trying

854
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:21,200
to get a

855
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:24,480
a paper just of some some ordinary claim

856
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:27,600
through peer review oftentimes it seems

857
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:29,120
to require extraordinary evidence to

858
00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:31,440
convince these reviewers so i've never

859
00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:32,720
really

860
00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:34,559
bought into this

861
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:36,080
this uh

862
00:33:38,789 --> 00:33:37,440
criterion

863
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:38,799
and so um

864
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:40,559
in you know just you know uh listening

865
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:42,159
to your talk on

866
00:33:47,909 --> 00:33:44,080
on hume i was wondering if if you could

867
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:47,919
see a a mapping between the two yeah

868
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:48,960
um

869
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:50,159
well

870
00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:53,679
i yeah him him sort of i think tries to

871
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:54,880
argue that

872
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:57,919
um miracles are um

873
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:00,720
are kind of like just inherently unr the

874
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:03,760
testimony regarding miracles is just

875
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:06,880
inherently unreliable um i think that

876
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:10,079
sagan um sagan's idea is a little bit

877
00:34:14,869 --> 00:34:11,919
different from him although there's that

878
00:34:17,349 --> 00:34:14,879
they are sort of comparable um i guess

879
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:17,359
the problem i have with sagans is i

880
00:34:20,230 --> 00:34:18,480
don't know

881
00:34:21,589 --> 00:34:20,240
i mean there's not there's not much of a

882
00:34:22,629 --> 00:34:21,599
definition

883
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:22,639
around

884
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:26,240
x what extraordinary means um like i

885
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:28,240
mean to me like

886
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,040
there's there's the there's the

887
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:33,679
i mentioned briefly um

888
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:37,040
sean carroll so he claims that the

889
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:38,800
quantum mechan the best explanation of

890
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:40,800
quantum mechanics is the multiverse that

891
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:42,720
is every time there's a quantum event

892
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:45,280
the universe splits but we can never see

893
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,440
it because we we're in one universe and

894
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:49,440
then there's another universe now that's

895
00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:51,520
a pretty extraordinary claim in my view

896
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,200
in fact it's probably way more

897
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:55,679
extraordinary than

898
00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:56,879
than um

899
00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:58,880
than than inside

900
00:35:02,470 --> 00:34:59,760
but

901
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:02,480
psy actually has evidence whereas

902
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:04,560
sean carroll doesn't really provide any

903
00:35:08,230 --> 00:35:06,720
evidence other than just simply an

904
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:08,240
argument around the

905
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:11,200
interpretation of the wave function so

906
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:13,359
so this this this notion of

907
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:15,760
extraordinary claim requires

908
00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:17,680
extraordinary evidence it seems like it

909
00:35:22,150 --> 00:35:19,839
depends on

910
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:22,160
that there's it it's it doesn't seem to

911
00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:25,920
be a principle that's kind of used um

912
00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:28,640
in a consistent way across science and

913
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:31,040
and of course the the terms

914
00:35:36,069 --> 00:35:33,839
extraordinary seems to be kind of um

915
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:36,079
seems to be kind of vague or

916
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:38,880
or ill-defined um as i mentioned in my

917
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:41,599
talk um i think that um

918
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:43,520
keith frankish the the philosopher of

919
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:45,680
consciousness would argue that

920
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:48,720
consciousness our conscious experiences

921
00:35:53,109 --> 00:35:51,599
um are actually so extraordinary that we

922
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:53,119
should probably

923
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:55,200
say that they that they're unlikely to

924
00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:56,880
exist okay that's

925
00:36:02,230 --> 00:36:00,160
that's kind of a way he argues so um

926
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,240
it's it's it's a very inherently

927
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:04,560
problematic kind of maxim

928
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:07,599
um when you try to apply it um sort of

929
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:09,839
outside in especially in these areas

930
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:12,400
like quantum mechanics and consciousness

931
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:14,720
where we have these sort of persistent

932
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:15,760
mysteries

933
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:19,200
um so um i guess i guess the way to try

934
00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:21,200
to do a mapping to try to come back to

935
00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:23,599
your question is that we would you know

936
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:25,520
maybe maybe someone

937
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:28,480
with humes uh um you know it's it seems

938
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:30,079
like that they were saying that if

939
00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:32,400
something's extraordinary we would have

940
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:34,800
to have a lot of data a lot of

941
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:37,200
experiments the kind of like kind of

942
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:39,040
like you know confirmation of

943
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:42,240
confirmation but the problem there in my

944
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:43,119
view

945
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:45,440
um you know we sort of have that we have

946
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:47,040
a lot of data

947
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:48,800
we have meta-analysis

948
00:36:54,150 --> 00:36:51,839
of based on studies across

949
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:54,160
time across different laboratories and

950
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:57,200
researchers different modalities such as

951
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,480
um you know precognition presentement um

952
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:02,880
you know remote viewing and so forth so

953
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:05,280
it just seems like you know even on that

954
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,640
score you know we we probably we could

955
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:10,880
probably even manage it so

956
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,079
when i hear

957
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:14,880
um the term or the or that maxim i'm

958
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:16,320
thinking that what what people are

959
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:17,760
trying to get into

960
00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:20,000
is more of a social construction in

961
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:21,440
other words we're just

962
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:22,960
you know things like sci are just

963
00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:24,720
outside of science

964
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:26,079
they don't really ha

965
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:28,240
it's it's it's in this in the sense that

966
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:29,040
it just

967
00:37:33,910 --> 00:37:31,040
to them maybe conjures

968
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:33,920
um you know um associations with

969
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:35,440
religion or something like that so that

970
00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:36,480
they

971
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:38,240
it's very so in other words it's very

972
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:40,160
difficult to sort of apply

973
00:37:43,750 --> 00:37:42,079
um scientific principles and be

974
00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:43,760
consistent about it and say that side

975
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:46,000
doesn't exist so there's all these other

976
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:48,000
kinds of arguments that sort of that are

977
00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:49,680
sort of thrown around

978
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:51,280
and at the end of the day

979
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,200
it seems like the arguments in my view

980
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:55,440
are kind of weak so i don't know i i

981
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:56,320
hope

982
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:58,960
some of that answers your question

983
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:01,359
thank you all right thank you logan

984
00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:03,920
all right so i have a question from da

985
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:06,320
chain pio

986
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:09,200
he says that inverse square does not

987
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:11,520
apply to all physical phenomena for

988
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:12,880
example

989
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:15,440
laser propagation does not abide the

990
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:17,280
inverse square law

991
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:20,160
every music was once new and every

992
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:22,720
physical phenomenon was once anomalous

993
00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:24,960
what if psy is a kind of coherent

994
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:30,870
what what if what if psy was a coherent

995
00:38:35,910 --> 00:38:32,560
phenomenon

996
00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:35,920
i'm not exactly sure i understand the

997
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:36,880
question

998
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:39,760
um but but i certainly take your point

999
00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:41,520
that you know everything that we're

1000
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:42,480
learning

1001
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:44,720
in the universe by coherent i assume you

1002
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:46,880
mean it it actually is

1003
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:49,440
kind of normal that is it fits with our

1004
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:51,920
reality it's coherent in that sense i

1005
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:53,680
i'm sort of presuming that that's

1006
00:38:57,349 --> 00:38:54,640
presumed

1007
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:57,359
yeah i'm presuming that um that is to

1008
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:59,359
say that it may seem anomalous because

1009
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,280
we've got this set of data from

1010
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:03,520
classical physics that suggests well it

1011
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:04,560
can't fit

1012
00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:07,680
but everything as you point out um you

1013
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:08,480
know

1014
00:39:13,030 --> 00:39:10,880
does um does seem anomalous at first

1015
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:13,040
when you're first learning about it so

1016
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:14,880
it could well be that it's

1017
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,359
maybe not only maybe it's maybe it's

1018
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:19,280
just normal and i think uh

1019
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:21,839
um that's that i think is a really good

1020
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:23,680
way of thinking about psy assuming

1021
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:24,800
that's what you're what you're

1022
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:26,960
suggesting and i think that uh

1023
00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:28,560
um

1024
00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:37,119
first sight it's uh first sight trying

1025
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:38,960
to think of the author's name carpenter

1026
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:41,599
that's it basically um develops a very

1027
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:44,400
sophisticated um framework for

1028
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:46,560
psychology thinking of psy is just

1029
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:48,640
normal but it sort of comes through our

1030
00:39:54,829 --> 00:39:51,599
subconscious and he's got a very sort of

1031
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:54,839
rich framework for understanding how

1032
00:39:59,750 --> 00:39:57,680
um based on various mechanisms in our

1033
00:40:02,550 --> 00:39:59,760
psychology how we might be filtering out

1034
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:02,560
the psy information or actually sort of

1035
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,520
like um sort of using it uh to inform

1036
00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:07,280
our world so i think that he's got a

1037
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:09,920
good sort of framework for exploring psy

1038
00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:12,880
is something normal um that we that most

1039
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:15,280
of us sort of have to some degree

1040
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,440
um and maybe we just sort of have to get

1041
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:19,920
past this idea that it's somehow

1042
00:40:24,309 --> 00:40:21,680
something that's kind of strange but

1043
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:24,319
actually just part of our world that we

1044
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:28,000
are learning about so anyway hope that's

1045
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:30,079
so i've got one more raised hand and

1046
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:31,839
then a final question from york and

1047
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:32,960
that's all the time we're going to have

1048
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:35,040
so i'm going to go ahead and pass the

1049
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:37,440
mic to newsy

1050
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:39,119
and that will be the last raised hand

1051
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:40,800
question for today

1052
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:42,720
so my question was triggered by the

1053
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:46,319
mention of conspiracy theory uh that you

1054
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:47,839
know there is this sort of wild

1055
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:49,359
conjecture that there might be a

1056
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:52,400
conspiracy theory by people who

1057
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:55,280
proponents of psy so we could turn turn

1058
00:41:00,630 --> 00:40:58,079
this around and say that

1059
00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:00,640
it could be that psy is not accepted in

1060
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:03,520
spite of the voluminous evidence because

1061
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:06,400
there is a conspiracy theory against psy

1062
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:09,040
i'm not suggesting there is but we could

1063
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:12,079
turn the tables around because there are

1064
00:41:18,790 --> 00:41:13,760
probably

1065
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:18,800
dissonance and resistance maybe

1066
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:20,880
unconscious resistance because it seems

1067
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,160
to me that

1068
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:24,240
conventional religion

1069
00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:26,000
might be threatened they would probably

1070
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:28,880
have a lot to lose if it turned out that

1071
00:41:34,710 --> 00:41:32,560
psy is true because various claims about

1072
00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:34,720
prayers and miracles the way they're

1073
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:36,000
explained

1074
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:38,240
traditionally in conventional religion

1075
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:41,359
would have to be modified so uh so so

1076
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:43,760
one is just sort of a sarcastic kind of

1077
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:45,599
comment okay you know if they're saying

1078
00:41:50,150 --> 00:41:48,160
that we have a cons doing a conspiracy

1079
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:50,160
theory maybe somebody is doing it

1080
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,160
against the psy folks so that's just a

1081
00:41:56,790 --> 00:41:54,000
sort of facetious comment but on a

1082
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:56,800
serious note i was wondering if some

1083
00:42:01,349 --> 00:41:59,280
someone has written a paper or compiled

1084
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:01,359
some thoughts about

1085
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:03,280
who if psy

1086
00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:05,440
was well it's already proved in my

1087
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:08,079
opinion and yours also but if it was

1088
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:09,520
accepted

1089
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:12,720
widely why in a wider sense by the

1090
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:15,680
public at large who are the parties that

1091
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:18,880
would stand to lose either materially or

1092
00:42:24,069 --> 00:42:21,520
in terms of prestige or whatever so we

1093
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:24,079
would just conjecture that perhaps those

1094
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:26,480
are the parties who are resisting it

1095
00:42:30,870 --> 00:42:28,800
most so that's my question

1096
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:30,880
yeah um well that's a very interesting

1097
00:42:34,790 --> 00:42:32,880
question um i mean

1098
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:34,800
right off the bat in my

1099
00:42:39,190 --> 00:42:37,280
opinion i think that uh

1100
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:39,200
you know there are a lot of scientists

1101
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:41,200
uh let's say

1102
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:43,920
many of whom are very prestigious um

1103
00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:47,280
have uh kind of uh staked a lot on the

1104
00:42:51,109 --> 00:42:49,280
fact that psy is kind of nonsense so you

1105
00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:51,119
know they maybe they would be

1106
00:42:55,109 --> 00:42:52,640
viewed as being sort of on the wrong

1107
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,119
side of history or maybe

1108
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:57,359
um you know just sort of maybe their

1109
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:59,920
prestige would lose um

1110
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:01,760
i i think this is a very interesting

1111
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:05,200
question um in the sense that um it does

1112
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:07,920
seem like there's kind of a resistance

1113
00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:10,079
that is um

1114
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:12,079
that seems to be beyond what you would

1115
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:14,640
normally think of is rational in a way

1116
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:17,200
that's that's i mean you often when you

1117
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:19,119
you you you see some of the arguments

1118
00:43:23,109 --> 00:43:21,200
made by skeptics you feel like they're

1119
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:23,119
it's almost like they're willfully

1120
00:43:27,589 --> 00:43:24,960
ignoring

1121
00:43:30,790 --> 00:43:27,599
very important pieces of the data

1122
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:30,800
and so um i remember uh a little while

1123
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:34,319
ago i read uh stephen pinker's um

1124
00:43:40,309 --> 00:43:37,440
recent book um it's called forgot what

1125
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:40,319
it's called enlightenment and he he

1126
00:43:44,230 --> 00:43:42,160
actually sort of mentions its science

1127
00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:44,240
passing basically just says well you

1128
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,160
know this stuff is weird and that's all

1129
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,560
he says he doesn't engage with the data

1130
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:50,480
doesn't really even you know kind of

1131
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:52,240
bring up any arguments at all and here's

1132
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:54,560
a he's written a huge book that's all

1133
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:55,440
about

1134
00:43:59,910 --> 00:43:57,040
the the importance of taking science

1135
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:59,920
seriously so it's a very sort of like

1136
00:44:03,349 --> 00:44:01,119
strange

1137
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:03,359
kind of thing and in my own theory if

1138
00:44:07,589 --> 00:44:04,960
you will it's not really a conspiracy

1139
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:07,599
theory but i think the way that a lot of

1140
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:09,359
academia and

1141
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:11,200
prestigious universities work that it's

1142
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:12,880
very important that they maintain their

1143
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:16,800
brand okay so harvard um princeton all

1144
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:18,960
these very prestigious schools a lot of

1145
00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:20,560
what i mean if you think if you look at

1146
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:23,440
the tuition and the and the grants that

1147
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:25,040
they sort of bring in

1148
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:27,440
huge sums of money and that and and that

1149
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:29,920
in large part is due to the main the

1150
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:33,119
ability to maintain a kind of brand that

1151
00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:34,640
science is real

1152
00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:35,520
and

1153
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:38,000
as a product of history probably more

1154
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:40,079
than anything else psy just simply has

1155
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:41,520
the wrong brand

1156
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:44,160
it's associated with um you know maybe

1157
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,319
the supernatural in its history and

1158
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:48,800
perhaps to some degree even to the

1159
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:51,920
present day so that means that any

1160
00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:55,200
individual university that sanctions um

1161
00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:58,720
research into psy has a tendency for it

1162
00:45:02,710 --> 00:45:01,119
to to be looked at for the other

1163
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:02,720
various kinds of

1164
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:04,640
of of of uh

1165
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:07,440
of of institutions is having is sort of

1166
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:09,440
maybe damaging their brand or that is

1167
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:11,040
they i think that they would they would

1168
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:13,040
see themselves as risking damaging their

1169
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:15,040
brand and remember their brand

1170
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:17,040
is crucial in

1171
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:19,040
in terms of getting tuition and grant

1172
00:45:22,309 --> 00:45:20,400
money and

1173
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:22,319
and you know really really really very

1174
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:24,960
large sums of money so i think that this

1175
00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:26,480
sort of like problem that the

1176
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:28,880
universities have they have to i mean

1177
00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:30,960
certain types of research of course are

1178
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,319
very important but questionable research

1179
00:45:37,270 --> 00:45:36,400
there's a real risk so i think in my

1180
00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:37,280
view

1181
00:45:42,230 --> 00:45:38,960
i wouldn't characterize it as a

1182
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:42,240
conspiracy theory more of a kind of way

1183
00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:44,000
that um

1184
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,760
that the way that

1185
00:45:49,589 --> 00:45:47,440
unfortunately the university

1186
00:45:53,190 --> 00:45:49,599
universities have a tendency to depend

1187
00:45:54,950 --> 00:45:53,200
too strongly on a kind of vision of

1188
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:54,960
science and what science is and what

1189
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,119
it's not being done and if the world

1190
00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:59,599
doesn't really fit into those boxes

1191
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:00,400
um

1192
00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:02,240
then you know it's it's there's there's

1193
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:05,040
a lot of resistance um so anyway that's

1194
00:46:09,109 --> 00:46:07,040
that's my own conjecture

1195
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:09,119
um you know i certainly welcome other

1196
00:46:13,430 --> 00:46:11,040
people's opinions as well

1197
00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:13,440
but might just add just a couple of

1198
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,200
garments so thank you very much for your

1199
00:46:19,589 --> 00:46:17,680
answer i would just want to add and i

1200
00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:19,599
don't know if you'll agree or not but in

1201
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:22,480
addition to everything you said i

1202
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:24,240
so that you know they have this box in

1203
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:25,839
which they fit science and the world and

1204
00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:28,560
so forth i think in this particular case

1205
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:30,880
it also threatens the box into which

1206
00:46:35,109 --> 00:46:33,359
they fit religion so they put religion

1207
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:35,119
in a box where it's you know it's just

1208
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:37,119
in your mind and there's a god in your

1209
00:46:42,430 --> 00:46:39,599
mind and you talk to the god but this

1210
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:42,440
would tend to give a different

1211
00:46:47,910 --> 00:46:46,000
explanation for to spirituality so that

1212
00:46:50,550 --> 00:46:47,920
even the box in which they want to keep

1213
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:50,560
religion is threatened and the people

1214
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:52,880
who religious people you know like some

1215
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:55,680
huge big catholic university or whatever

1216
00:47:01,670 --> 00:46:58,640
would not want to invest in this kind of

1217
00:47:03,910 --> 00:47:01,680
research because again it shakes where

1218
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:03,920
they want religion to be as opposed to

1219
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:06,720
this newer view so anyway just

1220
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,240
yeah you know

1221
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:10,640
i've heard other parapsychologists who

1222
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:12,400
who talk about this problem and they

1223
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:14,319
probably would would maybe agree with

1224
00:47:17,349 --> 00:47:16,640
you more than me i think they they feel

1225
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:17,359
that

1226
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:19,440
this sort of research does in some ways

1227
00:47:22,470 --> 00:47:20,400
threaten

1228
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:22,480
people with strong religious convictions

1229
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:25,119
and some of those are large donors or

1230
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:27,280
they're very influential politically you

1231
00:47:32,630 --> 00:47:29,599
know so for i think that there are some

1232
00:47:34,710 --> 00:47:32,640
say uh um side researchers who believe

1233
00:47:35,750 --> 00:47:34,720
that the government funding of remote

1234
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:35,760
viewing

1235
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:38,000
was in some ways cut off because some of

1236
00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:39,839
the people in the military were

1237
00:47:44,230 --> 00:47:42,319
sensitive to were actually kind of had

1238
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:44,240
certain religious beliefs or they were

1239
00:47:48,870 --> 00:47:47,440
sensitive to senators who had um strong

1240
00:47:50,150 --> 00:47:48,880
religious beliefs so i think that the

1241
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:50,160
religion

1242
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:53,760
aspect of it is also a major factor um i

1243
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:55,680
tend to lean more toward the other but i

1244
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:57,839
but other i think parapsychologists

1245
00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:00,240
probably would say maybe the religion

1246
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:02,000
plays that plays a very strong if not

1247
00:48:06,549 --> 00:48:04,559
the strongest role

1248
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:06,559
okay uh thank you for your your

1249
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,400
questions and comments newsie um we're

1250
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:10,720
gonna end with um a question from york i

1251
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:12,400
think this is a good closer uh and the

1252
00:48:15,750 --> 00:48:13,920
question is does this talk have a

1253
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:15,760
bibliography or reference list that

1254
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:17,599
could be sent out by mail to interested

1255
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:19,680
parties

1256
00:48:24,069 --> 00:48:21,920
i don't have it right now but i have but

1257
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:24,079
i am working on a paper and so i'll be

1258
00:48:29,829 --> 00:48:26,800
happy to send you um the paper version

1259
00:48:31,510 --> 00:48:29,839
or just the uh the list of uh references

1260
00:48:33,270 --> 00:48:31,520
when that's done and i should i should

1261
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:33,280
have something like that done in about

1262
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:35,040
you know a week or two so it won't be

1263
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:37,440
very long so i'd be happy to send

1264
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:39,280
um either the paper or just the